Nikola Gruevski served as the prime minister of North Macedonia between 2006 and 2016. Gruevski became prime minister on a wave of anti-elite sentiment in a country that was only 15 years old. Whilst initially pro-Western in outlook, Gruevski, and his right-wing party VMRO, became increasingly irritated by the Western powers’ ambivalence towards Macedonia, and began making not-so-furtive gestures towards Russia. At home, this was accompanied by cronyism and authoritarianism. Gruevski was chased out of his homeland in 2018, and now resides in Hungary, under the protection of Viktor Orban.
The reason I have decided to release this episode alongside the Assad episode is that both Syria and North Macedonia are examples of countries neglected by the West. Just as President Obama arguably left the the Syrian people in the lurch by failing to respond to the so-called red-line of chemical weapons, the EU have indisputably failed North Macedonia by making the country jump through hoops towards EU membership, only to repeatedly palm the Macedonians off.
Of course, these actions have had much worse consequences for Syria than for North Macedonia, but nevertheless have caused great resentment within North Macedonia towards the European project, and the stocks of politicians like Nikola Gruevski have risen accordingly.
My guest for this episode is Vlora Reçica (@vlorarechica), who works as a researcher at Macedonian think tank Institute for Democracy (@IDSCS_Skopje). Vlora and her colleagues have recently released a research paper called the Populist Citizen: Why Citizens support populist leaders and policies in North Macedonia.
Nikola Gruevski served as the prime minister of North Macedonia between 2006 and 2016. Gruevski became prime minister on a wave of anti-elite sentiment in a country that was only 15 years old. Whilst initially pro-Western in outlook, Gruevski, and his right-wing party VMRO, became increasingly irritated by the Western powers’ ambivalence towards Macedonia, and began making not-so-furtive gestures towards Russia. At home, this was accompanied by cronyism and authoritarianism. Gruevski was chased out of his homeland in 2018, and now resides in Hungary, under the protection of Viktor Orban.
The reason I have decided to release this episode alongside the Assad episode is that both Syria and North Macedonia are examples of countries neglected by the West. Just as President Obama arguably left the the Syrian people in the lurch by failing to respond to the so-called red-line of chemical weapons, the EU have indisputably failed North Macedonia by making the country jump through hoops towards EU membership, only to repeatedly palm the Macedonians off.
Of course, these actions have had much worse consequences for Syria than for North Macedonia, but nevertheless have caused great resentment within North Macedonia towards the European project, and the stocks of politicians like Nikola Gruevski have risen accordingly.
My guest for this episode is Vlora Reçica (@vlorarechica), who works as a researcher at Macedonian think tank Institute for Democracy (@IDSCS_Skopje). Vlora and her colleagues have recently released a research paper called the Populist Citizen: Why Citizens support populist leaders and policies in North Macedonia.
Hello and welcome to the hated in the dead with Tom Leeman. Good news. This is the second episode of this weekend, productivity has doubled in just seven days. And you can help make this a more common occurrence by leaving a rating on Apple podcast. This is by far the best way to keep the podcast active and hopefully in the long run profitable. This episode concerns Nicola Gretzky, who served as prime minister of Macedonia between 2006 and 2016, a highly intelligent and charismatic man, Gretzky became prime minister on a wave of anti elite and anti establishment sentiment in a country that was only 15 years old. Macedonia, formally part of nonaligned communist Yugoslavia became independent in 1991, and given its location in the Balkans, suddenly laid between the Eastern and Western worlds. Whilst initially pro Western in Outlook, Gretzky, and his right wing party VM wrote, became increasingly irritated by the Western powers ambivalence towards Macedonia, and began making not so furtive gestures towards Russia. At home, this was accompanied by cronyism and authoritarianism, in a country already saddled with endemic corruption. Whilst Grabowski was chased out of Macedonia, which changed its name to North Macedonia in 2019. The country is still banging its head against a brick wall when it comes to EU membership with France and Bulgaria blocking Macedonian desires to join the bloc. The reason I've decided to release this episode at the same time as the Assad episode is that both Syria and North Macedonia are examples of countries neglected by the West, possibly to the detriment of Western foreign policy goals. Just as President Obama arguably left the Syrian people in the lurch by failing to respond to the so called Red Line of chemical weapons, the EU have indisputably failed North Macedonia, by making the country jump through hoops towards EU membership, only to repeatedly palm the Macedonians off. These actions have caused great resentment within North Macedonia towards the European project, and the stocks of the likes of Nikola Gruevski have risen accordingly. My guest for this episode is Flora Richardson, who works as a researcher at Macedonian Think Tank Institute for Democracy, or ID SCS. For short. Laura and her colleagues have recently released a research paper called the populist citizen, why citizens support populist leaders and policies in North Macedonia. Ladies and gentlemen, it's time to introduce Nicola Gretzky. Hi, I'm Laura, how are you? Hi, Tom. I'm good. How are you? I'm very well. Thanks, Laura. We're talking about Nikola Gruevski. Today. He was the prime minister of Macedonia between 2006 and 2016. Macedonia has, of course changed its name since then to North Macedonia, for reasons I'm sure we'll touch on today. North Macedonia was a republic within Yugoslavia. I've done a few episodes on Yugoslavia recently. And it's an interesting country because it left Yugoslavia quite early. And quite quickly, in the early 90s. Can you talk a bit about those early years of Macedonia? Why was it able to leave the, you know, frying pan of Yugoslavia quite easily compared to some of its neighbours? Oh, well, I will have to try and give you more of a perspective of a young person when when Yugoslavia was falling out and when Macedonia well, then Macedonia left Yugoslavia I was actually not even born. So it's really it's a really interesting perspective. Looking at Fred, to that time, from my point of view, as a young person in this country that has went through through the name change and everything in the past 30 years. I think it's because of the focus of Serbia was not Macedonia at that point in time. You had the war and the genocide in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you had the turmoil that was going on over there. And then on the other hand, you had later on Kosovo, and the war in Kosovo and massacres in in Kosovo. So I believe that Macedonia was not in in in that view of Serbia with Serbia was trying to achieve. Also Macedonia at that point was able to form some kind of a stable government and a stable political leadership with Kira grigorov. And with forming that kind of stable leadership, it was able to implement policies that could make it easier for the country to to break away from from you from Yugoslavia. Despite its other problems, which dragged on, I mean, mainly with Greece until 2018, the country was in good relations with the other Yugoslav countries. So there wasn't really a reason for it in the 90s, for that happened, but then again, in 2001, you have the conflict, which was mainly because of internal issues rather than neighbourly issues in Yugoslavia. I think at this point, it's worth trying to sort of lay out some of the terminological differences when it comes to Macedonia. Macedonia was the name of the country we're studying today until 2019. And its name then change to North Macedonia. I appreciate I might be opening up kind of Pandora's box here, really, but can you differentiate a bit as to what some people mean by Macedonia as in the wider region of Macedonia because the region that's called Macedonia often and the country that's Macedonia or North Macedonia aren't exactly the same place? Oh, well, that's true. I mean, you have the northern region of Greece, that's called Macedonia. And that's was the main point of contestation. And that's the main reason why Macedonia was pushed to change its while the Republic of Macedonia was pushed to change its name, the main argument of Greece was territorial pretensions, which honestly wasn't really true. The then Republic of Macedonia didn't, didn't ever push for such. For such ideas, they never even declared such ideas of any territorial pretensions. And I'm sorry, there are some screaming children's. Thank you. So we're having a shaky start of the podcast, but I'm gonna try. So those territorial potentials never existed in the country and no political leader in in then Republic, Macedonian, express such pretentions they even were willing to sign any treaty or document that would say that we do not pretend any territorial, grabbing or anything in Greece. However, this wasn't really enough for Greece, which pushed the name dispute for more than two decades, since the 90s. So I lived most of my life in that kind of falling that that dispute. I also loved what to grab ski would do that later in since 2008. And forward he would push this kind of narrative of antiquity in the country to just kind of piss off the Greek because there were a lot of people in the country still believe even after the name change, that would the break our asking with did not have any, any ground. So it just it just pushed a lot of turmoil within the country and it polarised a lot of the people within within the Republic of Macedonia and North Macedonia. Now, still. If we if we move on to talking about Gretzky today, Nicola Gretzky was was born in 1970. He was a young man in the 1990s. He was 21 when Macedonia became an independent country. Do we know much about his kind of early career? You know, in the early days of Macedonian independence, do we know what he was doing? Yeah, he was actually quite a successful economist. He did his degree in economics. And he, he was working in the field. He was quite successful as a businessman who did he was kind of the first person to set up the Macedonian stock exchange. So he was quite successful in his field. He was also He always liked to mention that he was a boxer, and he was also into the arts. So honestly, if you look at his biography, and if you look at him as a person, and even if you look at him in his early political career career in the 1999 and 2002, when he was Minister of Finance He has he had implemented a lot of good policies economic policies for for the country. So quite a bright and sharp sharp person as a young age. He had a he had a lot of also political background. His uncle was Minister of Internal Affairs. And then later on he would establish good political duo with his cousin first cousin sashimi Alka, then they would actually know where to run the country together, rather than having one prime minister, we had a shot shadow Prime Minister, during the time he ruled, but even before he who wrote say he was quite bright, quite charismatic as a young person, which also helped him a lot within his political party of America money because he was able to gain leadership. I think it was in 2003. He was able to gain leadership and doesn't quite an adequate, qualified young age to become leader of the main, one of the main political parties is quite impressive. This political party that he of which he was part and the government that he was part of in between 1999 and 2002. What was its ideology? What what did it essentially believe in it in a post communist democratic country? What was the direction it wanted to take? Macedonia in? Oh, well, it was, it's a right wing party. It's a Conservative Party, however, pro democratic, so they had respect for the democracy, democratic institutions, they weren't really pro Eastern. Actually, the thing with with Gretzky was the tea, he was kind of pioneer pro Western conservative leader in the country, because conservative parties in the region tend to be more pro Russian, probably pro in some parts for Turkey, and the other eastern countries, in turn grabs give us quite pro Western, and he actually brought this this way of thinking within his political party, and that's the reason he was chosen president in 2000, president of the Vomero in 2003, because he established himself as a Democrat, as opposed to some of his predecessors. Quite an important event. I sort of mentioned earlier that obviously, Macedonia escaped Yugoslavia quite quickly, but of the Yugoslav Wars of the 90s. One affected Macedonia more than the others. And that was the war in Kosovo. And now of course, Kosovo and Macedonia. Border one another. So that's not entirely surprising. But um, why did the war in Kosovo destabilise Macedonia to a greater extent than those other wars? And what was the nature of that destabilisation? So I'm actually I was actually, I'm from Kosovo originally. So I was actually also escaping the war in 1997, just before it broke out. So even with me, I always try to distance myself as a researcher from my personal story. But even with me, you can see that there is a very important link between the people. So a lot of Albanian crossovers have been living in Macedonia even before the 99th aid war 1999 work. They were a lot of exchanges. There were a lot of families that were divided in the two countries. For me first, I think that this personal relationship of the Albanians from Macedonia and the Albanians from Kosovo is one of the reason that the war affected North Macedonia so much, because you have these personal stories and these personal lives that are intertwined. And as you said, it's it's a bordering country. Macedonia hosted the largest number of refugees from, from Kosovo in 9899. And this relationship never died down, you know, people continue to do to foster these kinds of relationships. For example, in 1998, I house was filled with refugees from Kosovo. And we also have still keep in contact with a lot of these people. And we still visit them in Kosovo. So it's an unbreakable tie. And on the other side, if we talk politically, you are talking about Albanians in North Macedonia as a minority. And at a certain point there were a discriminated minority. If you look at historically, they were not allowed to have their own university, the 9094 protests and the 1997 protests happened in in Scopia. in Gostivar, they were violent, and the university will only open it today. Before at certain point in time when militia which was introducing limiting policies on education in Kosovo, some of those policies were also implemented in North Macedonia, Albanians in the country were not included in the public administration. And that frustration, and that was happening in Kosovo, kind of, of course, had its spillover effect in North Macedonia and Albania and North Macedonia. Certainly, at a point in time thought that if we cannot gain our rights in a peaceful way, we are going to try to do that in a violent way. And that's when you have the 2001 conflict. So I never justify war in conflict, I always think that things should be resolved through dialogue and through peace talks. With this, I'm just trying to understand the reasons why it started because if I personally do not condone violence are actors and political actors in this country that will use any measure or tactic they deem necessary to reach their goal, and that was what happened in 2001. Some political actors that were involved also in the Kosovo War thought that that's the only way they can improve the conditions Albanians are living in in North Macedonia. Yes, you mentioned the poorly remembered I would say, war in in 2001, in northern Macedonia, where essentially the Albanian separatists attempted to create trouble for the Macedonian state and sort of form these breakaway units, perhaps some of them with the intention of eventually joining Albania. If you think about the picture that you've painted, so far of Gretzky, being a kind of reformer within a conservative movement, what was his attitude to the 2001 conflict and to the Albanian minority more generally did was his attitude towards those people consistent with the picture that you've painted of him being a reformer, or was he quite a hardline figure on the Albanian question? Well, women are the political party he belonged to at the time was a hardliner party, there were quite at points in their political history, they have been quite far right in their in their opinions. For example, a lot of prominent of a middle leaders that are not in parliament on that, and that helped a lot of important Pacific positions during their rulings were part of and Albanian protests in 2001. And in 2002, as well, they were also protesting the opening of the Albanian University in Toto. And these people are very prominent for them. What are the political fears, in turn Griffes key wasn't really involved public publicly in these under Albanian protests, although one figures that he was also a supporter of the same, the same attitudes and in the same policies that his party members and his quote unquote, friends are supporting, in terms of politically, if we look at the history, he has been quite a good partner with Albanian political parties in the country, especially with DUI. So, I cannot say that he's censor anti Albanian but he has used a lot of nationalistic rhetoric in his political activities that could say that maybe personally, he's well, he discriminates in a certain minority group in this country, which I belong to. You've spoken with him being a very intelligent man. And if somebody who can sort of he was a, you know, a very capable speaker, I don't I think given that I don't think it's a surprise maybe that he rose to the top of his political party formula at such a young age only, you know, in his early 30s, a bit like Sebastian Kurtz in Austria, he became prime minister in 2006. Aged 3536. What were the circumstances that led him into power? Was it a knock on effect of the destabilisation of the war and the problems that that caused Macedonia or were there other factors at play here? There was definitely a failure of the then some political, the government, they were leading a government that was quite unsuccessful in answering a lot of grievances in the country, especially I After the DNS and then D nationalisation processes. A lot of people failed economically in that period. So there were a lot of economic grief among the population a lot of issues that then as some government couldn't get an answer. So it's definitely a failure. Failure of the dentist is some government that kind of gave him the space to to gain power and to gain a lot of power very, very fast due to his charisma because I do believe that leaders, the cosmetic leaders will gain the votes in a way in one way or the other, regardless of their very bad political programme. So so the this huge space that is assembler left. For for for grabs kids, one of the main reasons he was able to to rise into power in 2006, because some of the changes that SSM made then even with a territorial change, in terms of the municipalities that were created in 2004. All of these political and economic grievances that they weren't able to do to to address through the or through through their ruling just gave the space for him to rise into power. So you're there, you're referencing the sort of post communist economic transition, the transition towards being nationalisation that was happening then a lot of communist power people, a lot of communist people have a lot of people that were very prominent during the Yugoslav era, were able to gain a lot of money and assets after the nationalisation process happened. And a lot of these people were actually part of the assembly. A lot of these people were in the structures of the party were prominent leaders of the party, which means people equate SSM with cronies are the bad people, the guys that are stealing our money. And a lot of people were left without an income. A lot of people were left jobless, a lot of people didn't have their lens because someone else was taking them there was closer to the government. Or then. And also, the difference between SDSM and Vamo, which still persists to this day is that SSM is much more of an elitist party. It's a party of the rich is the party of the elite is the party of the smart and the intelligent people is on the other hand, limeroad opponent has always depicted itself as the party of the people. And Nikola Gruevski was one of the pioneer populist leaders, I would say, in the region, he was able to be one of the people but the way he talked with the way he dressed with the way he addressed people. Because to be a man of the people, you have to be near the people and he was near the people. So he wasn't afraid to do that. So that difference was really stark in 2006. And it was really stark even after he left bar and even during his ruling, he was man of the people as opposed to what SSM was representing for a long time and still kind of represents. Isle Prime Minister is somebody who's often in Britain, our prime minister is somebody who's often referred to as a man of the people as well. The irony being that he isn't really he comes from a quite a, you know, an elite background. He's not representative of most of the people in in society. Do you think that that could also be sort of Gretzky that he, you know, was that this sort of man of the people thing was more of an act that people bought into rather than a reflection of his of his actual background. So he, he comes from a middle class family, he doesn't come from a very affluent family. However, he comes from a family that has a lot of political background, as I said his uncle was Minister of Internal Affairs. His first cousin was working with the Ministry of Internal Affairs as well, as well. So he comes from a political background and he comes from a family there is very smart and technical tactical. A lot of his background is very political, a lot of his grandparents and having political activist in terms of that he has a lot of knowledge passed on politically. However, if we talk economic economically, he was middle class when he joined, and also when we talk about these kinds of wealth, it's kind of funny to compare wealthy people in Britain and wealthy people in the Balkans, because it's a bit of incomparable in terms of what wealth means. For people here and what wealth means for there, but he was definitely a middle class person, he had a lot of perks in terms of that, because even being middle class in this country means a lot in terms of being affluent and having a bit of a privilege more than a lot of the 400,000 people that are on the brink of poverty as some statistics show. So, if we look past 2006, then presumably he cast himself as somebody who was going to do away with these with these people that had taken so much of of Macedonia's wealth, but in terms of, I think, I think something that he's often known for being is a kind of, is an authoritarian populist. When did those authoritarian tendencies begin to creep into his programme? I think it was post 2008. Let me set this aside. I think that women have a double money as a government during their 10 years of ruling have implemented some some good policies and have helped our country develop in certain ways. However, that is quite small compared to the damage that they have done to us as a society into our democracy. I do not think that their intentions were bad when they're slaughtered, and 2006. But I really do believe in the saying that the Lord Acton saying that power corrupts absolute power absolutely corrupts. In 2008, they were able to gain a lot of support politically, and I think that they that gave them kind of the push for them to to realise that they can do a lot more than what they are doing. And after the blockade of Greece in NATO in 2008. I think that Gretzky didn't really see a perspective in EU, which looking from the 2022 perspective, he was kind of right, because right now we're really in a very bad deadlock. I think he didn't see a really perspective in the EU. So he decided to take another route, our route that would mean for him establishing as himself as a strong leader, as a leader that will we'll look at other avenues avenues that could offer not just wellbeing to the citizens, but also for himself and his supporters and his clique. Let's say so that's the turning point. 2008 is definitely the turning point. Because afterwards, he been the rhetoric he was using, he gained a lot of support. He gained the majority in the Parliament, which means that he didn't really need the votes of all the opposition, he didn't need to compromise with anyone. In a way, he gained unlimited power. And he was doing projects like COVID 1014, which is unfair, unthinkable, horrible, project, but who was there to stop him? There was no one to stop him. He was controlling everything from judiciary, to Parliament, to government. And yeah, when I said on the middle power corrupts absolutely. Macedonia, in a way is the sort of gates between the Western world and the eastern one. NATO is obviously an exponent, or the areas that the produce of the Western world, but if Macedonia looks east, it sees it sees Turkey, it sees the Middle East, but it also sees Russia, the Russian Federation, the post Soviet, sort of Eastern Bloc. When you think about how Gretzky looked at the world, in 2006, when he took over being Prime Minister, and the way that he saw the world through his premiership, and towards the end of his premiership, do you think he started out as a Western leaning person and then became a sort of definitely Eastern leaning person? Or is that too simplistic way of thinking about this? Let me give you an example. I recently did a podcast about Alexander Bucha edge, who has been accused of being a sort of pro Russian ally, but actually it's not as it's not as simple as that he there's shades of pro EU and pro Russian in him. Do you think that by the end of his premiership Gretzky had any time for the West? It's a very hard question is because, as you said, Europe always puts us at this position where they're saying you're the gateway to the east and the East puts us in the position that says you're the good gateway to the to the West. So are we are the backyard of Europe or the courtyard of Europe, all these kind of sayings and then they put this Western Balkans which geographically is, like unthinkable to say like, who's Eastern Balkans Bulgaria, like what's what's the Western Balkans and everything. So they always tried to define us, in a way, and I'm not always fun of that, a fan of that kind of definitions that other gave you. I always believe in self taught self determination and self identification. And I think that a lot of people here feel European. Even if you look at the polls, IRI Erie they did they do this annual poll when they're asked people different questions, and one of the question is, Who do you feel closest to? And a lot of people culturally say that they feel close to Russia, or feel close to Eastern or to Turkey, which is understandable due to religion due to culture, whatever. But when you ask them, Where do they think that they belong? The answer is always Europe, the answer is always the West. So there is a very clear image in the head of the people where they belong and where they want to be. On the other hand, you have leaders like Bucha, and you have leaders like Gretzky, that a lot of will not which is so much but Gretzky that fell in a in a deadlock, in a position where you're being blocked, and they're not allowing you to solve the term and they are not lying, allowing you to self identify, and the playing field is very uneven. Greece is a member of EU, Bulgaria is in the member EU. And you're just a very small country, in the Balkans. So if we say, did Gretzky use this? We definitely didn't use this, but he and he used it with the political gain in mind with personal gain in mind, but my question is, what was the alternative? At that point, in 2008, in 2006, and earlier, what was the the alternative and I'm not saying this to justify whatever he did, because he captured the state. He, he used corruption. He was clientelism. He was nepotism, he used He limited freedom of speech. He limited freedom media. He did all of these horrible things that British is actually doing right now in in Serbia. My question is politically, looking at him as a political strategist, what were his options? His options was either to focus on the well being of the citizens and improving the economic situation in the country, or using what was happening for his own political gain. Unfortunately, he chose a later one, he chose one where he would carry himself on limited power, he would give himself richness and his partner's richness. And as every autocratic leader, it ends up with how he ended up in 2015 16. And then fleeing the country in 2018. Is the model using still that tactics even in 2022, that political Vomero is still using the same rhetoric, the nationalistic rhetoric, it's not something that has changed. So his legacy is very strong within the party. And his legacy is very stronger than the country. I definitely want to ask you about the sort of development of his party after he's left but you mentioned the 2015 16 protests against Gruevski there. What happened in those protests and what were the kind of cause of those protests that led to Gretzky ultimately having to leave power? Okay, so I was thinking about this. And actually, I remember that when Gramsci came in power, I was 12. And when he left I was 22. And I was thinking about my political development throughout my high school years in my students years. And I think that a lot of leaders says like Gretzky, undermine the power of the students undermine the power of the young people too often, in 2014. Even before the bumps, the SSM bombs were coming out, the groups in government decided to introduce something called external examination, which would mean that every student after they finish their studies would have to take an external tests, which is bogus, because you are working for four years you are passing all of your exams and then at the end, you have to pass on the external exam so people were not understanding what this was for. And the students started the protest movement. So the students formed the student plenum, which was a horizontal organisation. They were trying to protect the autonomy of the universities. And they were saying that the government has no job interfering to the autonomy of the university. This started a larger movement, which kind of gave wings to the opposition and kind of gave them the opening for them to start their own Campaign to Abolish to kind of take down the government grabs the government, they started with the bond, video wiretapping scandal. So they started publishing the bombs in 2015. Can you just on that wiretapping point, can you go a bit more into into what what that entailed? Thank you. Yeah, that's that's the thing is that everyone knew at least from 2008, onward, the things were in, right. So there were a lot of a lot of pressure on media, there was a lot of pressure on the judiciary, there was a lot of pressure on the university. So in general, there were a lot of government pressure, you knew that you had to be a political party member to be able to gain a job, you knew that you had to have a political party membership to be able to build your house and not get fined for it. And this is something that people talked about it but talked about it Hush. Then in 2015, when the bomb scandal, that's what we call it, the bombings got lumps candle started, is that what we were hearing in this tapings, but was exactly what we knew. So we were hearing high officials talking about tenders, we are hearing about high officials talking about abolishing or demolishing buildings just because they didn't like who was building them. We were hearing about talking about the judiciary and about faking crimes and putting people into jail. So all of this was taped. And all of this we could hear and we had, we now had proof of something that we knew for a long time. And then some very important thing. It's, it felt a liberating for a lot of people to say, I was talking talking about it. I knew I was saying everything, but nobody believed me. So this is happening. And that's what happened. And it was like 20,000 people that were being wired, taped illegally by the by the Secret Service, so that it was an infringement on everyone's right. Also, there was this very important moment in 2011. In this actually, gathering there was in support of the woman or government of a young person was killed by a policeman. It was deemed as an accident, nobody was prosecuted, even though the family of the young boy was trying to get the justice they deserved. And in this tapes, we found out that the crime was covered by the Minister of Interior, and it was covered by the supporters and the collaborators of the Prime Minister, which was really important in the fight against police brutality. And this is what spiked the May 5 protests were there was a lot of violence. This is what spiked later on the May 17 protests and what was continuing even in 2016 after the Virginia government was established when the President tried to pardon the people that were involved in the viral tape and taping scandal. So when this happened, this also angered not just the students, not just the young people, This angered everyone in the society. And this lease protests are the most multi ethnic protests we have ever had, because a lot of people came, came out, protesting the government, the Gretzky, government and anger they they were showing, unfortunately, in my opinion, the protests were one point hijacked by the opposition parties as it always happened. But the thing that I don't want to do anything that I see a lot of people doing is undermining the genuine anger of people when they were going out on the streets, because they were tired of having to be a member of political party. They were tired of having to have someone in the public administration they were tired of going to the judiciary and losing just because they didn't have the right connections in the money. So yeah, all of this anger blue with the bomb, video vara tapings, because they were able to confirm confirm everything that they were, they were already knowing. So then is when the negotiations had to happen that you don't know if you remember the prisoner negotiations or the which were mediated by you, which in my opinion, I will I wish we could be able more to resolve our issues internally rather than have mediation by US and EU. But you took a more stronger stance this time and they mediated the Persian agreement, which wasn't really successful. If you look at the situation, you said that you're going to talk later, but it's kind of always connects to 2022. Because if you look at 2022, what did the Birgeneau agreement really changed, we established the special prosecutor office. And the leaders special prosecutor that was elected and was proposed and accepted by Vamo. ended up in jail. She is in jail because she tried to corrupt witnesses. And it's just mind boggling that one of the main issues and the reason that we didn't want the federal government that grips the government is just a recurring problem. And it's frustrating for a lot of people. So just to backtrack a little bit there. Gretzky, as a result of the protests that exploded because of the wiretapping scandal, Gretzky resigned in January 2016. This was after, you know, obviously a 10 year period in government, what was the nature of the government that came after him? Something that I've explored a couple of times in the podcast is that populist governments tend to be replaced by very different, technocratic, quiet governments in a way led by diligent, quiet people. Was that the case in Macedonia after 2016, you were spot on. So in 2017, this very reformist government came into place. The civil society sector, which I'm part of is actually we have had a very good partner in the government there have opened doors, they are more cooperative, they are more open to the citizens opinion. There are genuinely ReFirme is government, and they have implemented a lot of reforms that are supposed to help our democracy and our democratisation process, everything. However, one of the issues that is still prevalent even with this government is corruption, and nepotism and clientelism. Why is because this system of corruption is ingrained in all of our institutions. It's kind of something you see everywhere. You go to the doctor's corruption, you go to the public administration, you the document corruption, you go to school, even through your education, there is a lot of corrective actions in universities, there is corruption. So even with the change of government in which promise to deliver a lot, and they have delivered a lot, starting with the reforms, starting with a name change, starting with our trying to open our process with EU, NATO membership, there are they these are very big reforms, even now with what's happening with the church and the independence of the Macedonian church. All of these are very big reforms, but they are not dealing with the main issue that affects me as a citizen every day, and that is corruption. And that's the one main issue that you need to deal with, for people to kind of believe that you are doing something for them, because that's the everyday change. You see. And from from what you said a second ago about the investigation into Nikola Gruevski. It might be might help if we go through the some of the substance of that that investigation. What was the investigation about? Oh, so Grassley is not actually in jail. He's in Hungary. He has political asylum. Our country has sent a request for extradition, which Hungary has rejected. So he's actually having a very successful businesses and Orban in Hungary. He is actually a very rich man in in Hungary elevado. That thanks to to the money of the citizens of North Macedonia. Out of all of the things that Gretzky did, in 2018, he was convicted for buying a Mercedes or with countries with our state budget of 600,000 euros, which is a lot of money. It's a very expensive Mercedes. So he bought this car and he was convicted for two years. He was supposed to be in jail in November 2018. And all of a sudden, everybody lost track of him because his passport was actually confiscated, so it was supposed to stop him from leaving the country. However, it was later found out that he was able to leave the country through Albania with the help of Hungary official cars, diplomatic diplomatic cars he was able to go through Serbia and through Montenegro and through Montenegro and Serbia and reach Hungary. And the the the way that we found out that he escaped the country was with a Facebook posts. So after him missing for five days since the day he was supposed to be in jail, he wrote a post on Facebook, this is something that he was, he's been doing very often, everything something major happens in the country, he will do a Facebook posts. And this is we call this the resurrection of grand scheme because it's like, it's time after time. He does this post on Facebook, which are very funny. But a lot of people still love him here. So it's interesting to see the likes, and the response. So he did a post and he said, I've been prosecuted, I'm being politically prosecuted. So I have been here asking for political Isaac asylum, which he gained through his right wing partner, Orban, and he's been there since 2018. For four years, he's been living in Hungary, in 2020 21, he was actually convicted for another in absence for another money laundering scheme, from buying land in one of the most prominent parts of the city, and which was legal. And a lot of these partners were also convicted. But he managed, and this sentence is for seven years, but he's not serving it because he we haven't been able to extradite him from from Hungary to to hear a lot of his close collaborators are in prison, which is surprising. So even his first cousin, one of the we called, we called him actually the person, the one who should not be named just like Lord Voldemort, for a long period of time social media, because his name was wasn't really able to be mentioned among people you were We were scared, because he was the Secret Service. Nobody knew what he was doing. He's actually convicted, and he's supposed to serve a sentence, but he paid a lot of money for bail. So he's not in prison. But a lot of his close collaborated like Audible and cool of scammy and akitas. Key conscious of a lot of these people are not serving their sentences, a chunk of they are serving their sentences in prison, which is kind of a celebratory moment for the citizens of these countries. And because these people have done a lot of harm to them, and to certain people more than two others. You You mentioned that Gretzky is still quite popular in your country, is the kind of political nature of Vaughn road, the party, is it still quite populist and authoritarian in nature? Do you think you could have a another Gorecki in the future? So what they're trying to do in 2018, after the attack in the parliament in 2017, I don't know if you're aware of this in 27th of April 2017. There was attacked in the parliament when they were electing the president of the Parliament, which was an attack to our democracy. Honestly, there were a lot of actors involved. A lot of these actors were vulnerable actors and former MPs. After that incident, after that, Nicola Gretzky resigned even from the leadership of the party, NEC and Mackowski, is the one that succeeded him. And they tried to say that there are reforming so they tried to push this reform this narrative within Vamo, that saying they were a new party with fresh blood with new people, but a lot of the old people are still in the party, there are still major actors in the policies of the party. Is the party, as does the party have a different rhetoric? It does have a different rhetoric is much milder than what Gretzky was doing. It's because that Christian Wieckowski does not have the charisma that Gretzky had. So he has to be much more careful with what he's saying. And what he's doing. Is the party's still conservative and right wing. Yes, the party's still conservative in his right wing, the policies they represent are conservative and right wing, sometimes constructive, sometimes they tend to be very destructive opposition. However, all the polling is showing that actually at the point at this moment, they have more support than any political party in the country. I think the one of the reasons is that this reform is parties and governments like the one have as it some people have very high hopes when they come into power. And since no government can really fulfil those high hopes or reference, governments tend to kind of die down and the virus really using this is using one Bulgaria is doing but the blockade with the blocking of our EU process is using what France is doing with blocking and what Netherlands was doing back in 2019 to just kind of establish their position more among voters and in 2000 In 20, during the local elections, they won with major differences. They won a lot of the municipalities this as this was holding. So these kinds of grievances and what the pandemic has done in the economic crisis, a lot of these issues are just fueling the discontent among among the citizens, which Monroe is has been able to really reap the benefits off with their nationalistic and right wing narrative, or sometimes even anti Western, but not that much. You mentioned EU accession there. And obviously, North Macedonia has been trying to get into the EU for a long time. But I want to just finish by talking about your relationship to another international institution, which is NATO, North Macedonia, is the the most recent country to join NATO it joined in 2019. In terms of when we were talking about North Macedonia being western or eastern facing. Do you think that that, that joining NATO is the conclusion of that discussion? Now? Do you think that it, it basically guarantees North Macedonia as future as a Western facing country, even if say, a Gruevski figure came back? Who was a bit more agnostic towards the Western? And a bit more, maybe a bit more pro Russian? Do you think that actually, it locks you in to the West? I'm trying to find the best way to to, to answer this is not said only a pro western country, I want to think of Macedonia and North Macedonia as more of a pro democratic country rather than pro Western pro Eastern, I'm really a fan of this kind of dichotomy that the world is pushed into, even though as a scientist, as a political scientist, I'm aware of the of the differences. Also, as a political scientist, I'm very against this narrative. I want to think of North Macedonia as a pro democracy, democratic country, a country that and in that sense, we can say that, yes, the country is locked in this pro Weser. narrative and this pro Western way of thinking in this pro Western alliance, let's say, sorry, NATO was was kind of a step that established this, but there needs to be a next step. And the thing is that the blockade that Bulgaria is doing right now, even with NATO, even with Macedonia and being part of the NATO, even the citizens being pro democratic, even with the citizens being pro Western, this frustration that the name change has caused. And this frustration that Bulgaria is causing right now is pushing people to the edge with their support to Western countries, not western values Western countries, is pushing them to an end with EU is pushing them to an end with friends and their new weight techniques have a session and negotiation is pushing them to an end in believing in the EU ideal. All the polls are showing that people support for EU is falling is dropping even among the Albanian community, which is the Pro, the most pro Western nation in the region. The support is dropping support for democracy is not dropping support for EU is dropping. And I think that that is something that EU and Western countries and Western European countries need to think about and something that they need to re realise. My hope is that this frustration with EU is going to push a more regional cooperation is going to push for people and political leaders in the country will create better well being without relying in the EU. But what my hope is, and what reality is showing is quite different. We can see what is happening in Serbia, we can see what is happening in Albania, we can see what is happening even here. And imagine that we're winning elections and imagine having your Ghana conservative and right wing party and imagine the damage they could do even having rescue back because when you have the power you have to do you can you can do that. So all of those are dangers that need to be taken into consideration. As I said, I would say that the country is a pro democratic one. It's a pro Western. One. NATO helped that narrative, but not as much as we hoped for. It certainly it sounds as if the EU really is the kind of missing link? Definitely. And what is happening with what happened with Rhys and what's happened with Garia is just the just a slap in the face for the country because the we changed our name. And we were promised something and that promise was not delivered. So of course, of course there's frustration polarisation in the country, it was expected. Even with NATO happening. frustrations are genuine. How do you see it ending with the dispute with Bulgaria? Bulgaria obviously being an EU country and Macedonia not being one, how do you see it ending? I'm not positively and a lot of the talks I have with a lot of my friends and a lot of research and a lot of people that are more prominent researchers in the IR theory. They do not see it ending it well, because the playing field as I said, it's not even a Bulgaria's EMA rule North Macedonia is not an EU member, you votes unanimously. And until the EU reforms itself until you introduce a different types of voting, there will not be a future for North Macedonia in the EU, even if they open negotiations, Serbia and Montenegro have opened negotiations for almost a decade now nothing is happening. Same Same as with with North Macedonia, and with Albania, honestly, my pushes for more regional cooperation and democratic creation within the region rather than just depending on EU and US decisions, because there is a saying, you know, the little countries do what they must the big countries do what they want. I just want to kind of get the region and get North Macedonia out of that narrative, and become a strong country with our own powers, rather than depending on on the decision of Bulgaria, deciding if we're Macedonia this or we're not Macedonia is just, it's not supposed to be their decision. It's supposed to be the decisions of the people in this country. Thank you very much. I enjoyed that. And where can people find your work your your research, or where can people find the stuff that you'd write? Yeah, so most of my research is published on the website of the think tank. I work at Institute for Democracy. So it would be IDC s. I'm sorry, let me look for it to say right idcs.org MK and you can also find me on Twitter at Euro Richardson just like my name is Cerney is basically that's my Twitter handle. That's where I publish most of my work as well. So those are the two channels you can basically find my work floor. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the hated in the dead. If you've enjoyed this podcast, follow it on Spotify and Apple podcasts. And for good measure. Leave us a review. You can also follow the hated in the dead on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook so you never miss new content.